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Macedonia: what's in a name? A major controversy!
The erection of a giant statue of Alexander the Great in the Macedonian capital of Skopje is the latest round in an ongoing controversy with neighboring Greece.
The statue, erected on Tuesday as part of an ambitious urban development plan called Skopje 2014, drew criticism from some Greek politicians and nervous mutterings from European diplomats. They say it's deliberate provocation because Greece objects to the name Macedonia. Using this name, some say, implies a claim over the Greek province of Macedonia, where Alexander the Great was actually born. Of course neither country existed at the time, the land being divided up into a patchwork of ancient city-states. When history is used as a propaganda tool, historic accuracy goes out the window.
Macedonia, officially the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, broke off from Yugoslavia in 1991 and has been in a row with Greece about its name ever since. This isn't some minor squabbling. Greece successfully blocked Macedonia's entry into NATO and is stonewalling the country's attempts to join the European Union. With Macedonia being one of the poorest countries in Europe, this argument over a name is costing them a lot.
[Photo courtesy Wikimedia Commons]
Filed under: Arts and Culture, History, Learning, Europe, Greece, Macedonia, News
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Boris Jun 23rd 2011 2:51PM
History.
The kingdom of Macedon was not a city state, but a kingdom, and it was Hellenic.
The squable is petty, the Greeks know that.
But when there is hatred and intence historical revisionism directed to oneself, you react.
Greece has a right to Alexander and the ancient kingdom of Macedon, far more than the Slavic inhabitants of an X Yugoslav province.
For the record, and a history lesson, lets take a lookat Yale:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuOxGMoHMMY
Listen to the first 5 minutes, or if you havent got time, skip to minute 4:50.
Have a nice day and stop erecting statues of heroes pretending they are your own..
This can only bring conflict, hatred and confussion in the future.
Isn't it a pity?
Macedonia Jun 24th 2011 3:01AM
This article is missing so many facts and is so patronizing it sincerely comes off as racism. Where are facts like this?
"The creation of the Macedonian nation, for almost half of a century, was done in a condition of single-party dictatorship. In those times, there was no difference between science and ideology, so the “Macedonian” historiography, unopposed by anybody, comfortably performed a selection of the historic material from which the “Macedonian” identity was created. There is nothing atypical here for the process of the creation of any modern nation, except when falsification from the type of substitution of the word “Bulgarian” with the word “Macedonian” were made." -former FYROM foreign minister Denko Maleski
Or how about "minor" details of history like this?
"This (US) Government considers talk of Macedonian "nation", Macedonian "Fatherland", or Macedonia "national consciousness" to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece.' - US state department 1944
http://tinyurl.com/nel46d
Or how about his?
" On November 4, 2004, two days after the re-election of President George W. Bush, his administration unilaterally recognized the “Republic of Macedonia.” This action not only abrogated geographic and historic fact, but it also has unleashed a dangerous epidemic of historical revisionism, of which the most obvious symptom is the misappropriation by the government in Skopje of the most famous of Macedonians, Alexander the Great."
http://macedonia-evidence.org/obama-letter.html
Why not mention the former Yugoslavians teach their schools children and citizens Macedonia Greece is "occupied"?
http://www.sae.gr/files/img/full/1228.jpg
Greeks warned FYROM apologists (who ignored Greece's concerns about called the former Yugoslavia "Macedonia") something like this would happen two decades ago. Greeks knew what they were talking about because three conflicts involved this issue (Greece's botched fiances is another matter)
However, instead of apologizing for their blunders, some FYROM apologists now seem to be in the business of trying ethnically erase Greeks (in particular Macedonians) to cover up their mistakes in ethical judgment. Why else is it these same sorts of smug apologists seem to constantly have difficulty reporting facts like this?
'We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great.'
(FYROM'S Ambassador Ljubica Acevshka, speech to US representatives in Washington on January 22 1999)
'We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.' - FYROM´s Ambassador to Canada Gyordan Veselinov, Ottawa Citizen Newspaper, February 24 1999
"We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians" - Kiro Gligorov, FYROM's first President, Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992
"The whole story about Ancient Macedonia sounds undoubtedly very nice. However, there is a great problem, a huge hole of about 2,000 years during which we have neither oral nor written tradition, nor a single scientific argument!” - former Prime Minister Ljubco Georgievski, FOCUS, 31 March 2008
etc...etc...
The Ger Jun 23rd 2011 5:05PM
When the Ancient Greeks were writing philosophy, those "other" Macedonians were still hanging from trees.
Alexander Jun 23rd 2011 9:30PM
Alexander was ancient Macedonian as the ancient Macedonians defeated the Hellenes in battle on several occasions..He also spoke to his troops in a language not understood by the ancient Greeks. Today's Macedonians in the country called Macedonia have every right to identify with their brethren from ancient times. Greece has zero right. Macedonia for the Macedonians. Alexander would be proud.
Alexander Jun 23rd 2011 9:32PM
the "other Macedonians" were hanging from trees comment is racist and sickening..Is that what they teach you in Athenian school? Unbelievable
Homeland Jun 23rd 2011 11:04PM
Whenever there is a word about Macedonia some Greek attacks the country and its citizens. There is no logic or science in an identity, there is only a fact that that is the identity of a person, a nation or a country. That is why it is a sovereign and universally acknowledged international right to choose your own identity and name. Greece and the EU countries are totally on the wrong side of this issue, they have no sense of rights and freedom. As such there is no utility in setting them right, just to accept that with racist, human rights violators and deniers of basic human and sovereign rights there should be no dialogue, no negotiation and no compromise. Sooner or later this small, for you insignificant nation will rise to an equal place among the people of the world. Much of the world has recognized this equality and right. Greece probably never will until it grows up to be a normal nation and Europe will one day wake up or should scrap every single principle on which it says it is based.
George Jun 24th 2011 1:09AM
If the Slavs Macedonians love Alexander so much then make Greek the official language of FYROM. Alexander spoke Greek not the Bulgarian dialect which the Slavs call Macedonian.
Daenerys Jun 24th 2011 3:09PM
Whenever the issue of the ancient Macedonian origins arises, the comments emanating by the citizens of the Former Yugoslavs Republic of Macedonia, are so inaccurate and plain silly that makes everyone wonder whether they have ever read anything about ancient history.
someone claimed: "Alexander was ancient Macedonian as the ancient Macedonians defeated the Hellenes in battle on several occasions.."
Dear lord!! So if someone defeated "Hellenes in battle", this constitutes for some irrational minds a factor of... Ethnicity.
How didnt historians ever thought of that amazing fatuous theory??
According to the paralel universe these people reside, we should start doubting Spartans were Greeks.
After all, Spartans defeated "Hellenes in battle" in much more occasions than Macedonians.
Another silly claim: "He also spoke to his troops in a language not understood by the ancient Greeks. "
Another unfounded claim which doesnt even exist in ancient sources. More hoaxes promoted by these people who have only learnt in their lives just to parrot what they feed them. A fine example of extreme Brainwashing.
Think for once in your lives logically.
If allegedly ancient Macedonians were not Greeks, then find us a non-Greek people who shared ALL these characteristics of the ancient Macedonians, prior to Alexander´s conquests. I publicly challenge you!!
Namely a Non-Greek people:
(a) speaking Greek,
(b) participating in Pan-Hellenic Games where Only Greeks can enter.
(c) having Greek names,
(d) sharing the same religion with Greeks.
(e) conquering/spreading Greek language and Culture everywhere they pass,
(f) using Greek Architecture,
(g) building Greek cities
(h) identifying themselves as Greek.
Only Greeks could share the above characteristics. Wake up at last and stop spreading your absurd claims.
Peter Givens Jun 24th 2011 3:10PM
It is ironic for a nation like Greece to claim the Macedonian Empire of Alexander the Great as their own.Fabricated history does not give you the right to claim it as yours.On the language issue;Alexander spoke both languages,Macedonian and Hellenic.This does not mean he was Hellen.As other commentators point out,the Kingdom of Macedonia was a nation,whereas Greece was non-existant up untill 1834.The proof of dual languages spoken by Alexander is evident at the trial for treason of his own general Philotas.Furthere evidence is in the letter of Isocrates to Philip making the distinction between democracy and Monarchy.In 338 BC Demosthenes adds to this truth by composing the epitaph for the fallen Hellensnit reads in part;"Time whose oersing eye records all human action,bear word to mankind what fate was suffered, how striving to safeguard the holy soil of Hellas.upon Boeotias plains we died."They were striving to safeguard the holy soil of Hellas from the attack of the Macedonians.Ancient Macedonians were not Greeks,they did not consider themselves to be Greeks,nore were they so considered by the ancient Hellens.On the languages,here is a quote from Polybius"speakers of same language"with which the Greek fellow wanted to use as proof that Ancient Macedonians spoke the same language as the Ancient Hellens and thus,they must be classed as Hellens.Now these same Greeks are burning the candle from the other end and want to argue the point but this time since it suits their purpose,in the opposite direction:namely that"linguistic criteria are not only insufficient to denote ethnic naunces in the Balkans but they can be misleading.A lesson learned:you cannot burn the candel from both ends and expect not to get burned.Durring the revolution in 1825 and subsequent establishing the Greek kingdom in 1834 Greek historywas written by Prince Otto of Austria who asked his High School friend to writte and to gloryfy Greeces history.Do you remember what PM Ralis said to the "New York Times in 1903 in regards to Macedonia?Do you know what the High Greek representative at the League of Nations said on the Macedonian language?Do you know the problem PM Mitsotakis had on the recognition of the Republic of Macedonia?He in fact had no problem in recognising the Republic of Macedonia,his main and only problem was the recognision of the indigenouse Macedonian minority within its borders.Do you know that in 1913 Greece expropriated part of Macedonia and Crete with the Big Powers help?I suggest,you read-up what the Greek Ambassador to Skopje Miss Grossomanidou said,what Karakasidou and others have been saying on the question of Macedonia and its people.Reasontly,former PM Karamanlis and more resently FM Droutsas claimed they were true Macedonians while the indigenouse Macedonians cannot claim their identity as Macedonians.Does this looks like a mature nation?.
Daenerys Jun 25th 2011 5:33AM
Another nonsensical comment, indicative of the lies and misinformation that FYROM's Slavs have been fed since birth.
lets shoot down their unfounded claims for the fun of it.
When the Macedonian King Philip V states in the treaty between Macedonia and Carthage the following:
"That King Philip and the Macedonians and the REST of the Greeks who are their allies shall protect the Carthaginians, the supreme lords, and Hannibal their general,.."
It is apparent that even ancient Macedonians themselves Identified themselves as Greeks. Therefore Macedonians verified also, contrary to the silly Slavic assertions, there was a Greek Nation and they were Part of it.
Where did they stated anything about being Slavs like you??? Opps i forgot...Slavs have nothing to do with ancient History.
Another totally groundless assertion is the "On the language issue;Alexander spoke both languages,Macedonian and Hellenic."
By the name "Hellenic", scholars identified in the ancient Greek world the Attic dialect and much later its evolution, Greek Koine.
So if Leonidas of Sparta spoke Doric and Hellenic, should we also assume by the fatuous Slavic irrationality that He wasnt Greek either??
Can you write a single argument making the slightest sense?
Then our Slavic friend claims that the "evidence" of these somewhat "dual languages" is found in Philotas Trial. I wish he had read Philotas Trial. Because Philotas explicitely states that using the Koine would make his speech “EASIER to understand“, indicating that Macedonian dialect was not incomprehensible to the non-Macedonians, but a bit more difficult to understand.
Another totally unfounded claim is found later stating "Furthere evidence is in the letter of Isocrates to Philip making the distinction between democracy and Monarchy"
Does this even makes sense to you?
Was Sparta a Democracy or a Monarchy??? Should we also assume by your totally flawed assertion that because Sparta was a Monarchy where Kings ruled, they couldnt be Greeks???
If someone hasnt ever told you Demosthenes was a paid agent of Persia and the major Political Opponent of Macedonia. What do you expect to say?? His account to be taken as unbiased? Do you people even think what you write?
Demosthenes had labeled even his Athenean political opponents like Aristogeiton as "Barbarians" in order to diminish them? Should we start doubting now Atheneans were Greeks?
When Lykiskos the Acarnanian addresses Spartans and states: "Then your rivals in the struggle for supremacy and renown were the Achaeans and MACEDONIANS, peoples of your OWN RACE, and Philip was their commander."
apparently even Greeks consider Macedonians as People of their OWN RACE!!!
When Polybius states explicitely:
"But if thanks are due to the Aetolians for this single service, how highly should we HONOUR THE MACEDONIANS, who for the greater part of their lives never cease from FIGHTING WITH THE BARBARIANS FOR THE SAKE OF THE SECURITY OF GREECE? For who is not aware that Greece would have constantly stood in the greatest danger, HAD WE NOT BEEN FENCED BY THE MACEDONIANS and the honourable ambition of their kings?"
apparently this ancient account totally shatters your erroneous claim. Macedonians were considered to fight for the sake of the security of Greece!!!
Sorry to break the news to you but your arguments are not only false but they are totally childish.
I made a simple question before and no Slav dared to answer it. Lets thow it inside once more.
Think for once in your lives logically!!!
Can anyone find us a non-Greek people who shared ALL these characteristics of the ancient Macedonians, prior to Alexander´s conquests. I publicly challenge you!!
Namely a Non-Greek people:
(a) speaking Greek,
(b) participating in Pan-Hellenic Games where Only Greeks can enter.
(c) having Greek names,
(d) sharing the same religion with Greeks.
(e) conquering/spreading Greek language and Culture everywhere they pass,
(f) using Greek Architecture,
(g) building Greek cities
(h) identifying themselves as Greek.
Only Greeks could share the above characteristics. Wake up at last and stop spreading your absurd claims being the Laughing stock of the world!!
Warrior on a Horse Jun 26th 2011 4:48AM
Greece must also compromise, yet they believe Macedonia must give everything up. Greeks argue about history, when they don't realise modern Macedonians state they are a mix of the ancient Macedonians and Slavic people merged several hundred years ago.
They also ignore that Macedonia was divided in 1913 - by Bulgaria, Serbia and Greece. In Greece, an ethnocide-like Hellenisation occurred in which Macedonian language and religion was declared illegal and Macedonians forced to adopt Greek language and religion, over 600000 Asian refugees settled into Macedonia while countless amounts of Macedonians were evicted or killed from there native homes. And let's not forget Greeks destroyed all evidence of Macedonian presence by changing frescoes, street names, landmarks and even tombstones into Greek. If Macedonia was Greek then this Hellenisation, especially under Metaxas, would not have been necessary.
In the 1920s Greece respected the Macedonians and actually recognised them - but today they are obsessed with hidding the books and maps written during those times in order to avoid embarrassment. Greeks spend all their EU money on conducting anti-Macedonian activities. Greece claims Macedonia has territorial aspirations yet they are the ones who divided Macedonia in 1913, they are the ones who wanted to divide Republic of Macedonia with Serbia's Milosevic in the 1990s, and they are the ones with priest talking about invading Bitola in the 2000s.
No one takes you seriously anymore Greece because the Macedonians are right. Recognise the Macedonians in Greece like you did in the 1920s - and give them their human rights, recognize the Republic of Macedonia like you did before you realised their independence in the 1990s was imminent, and stop trying to ignore the history of Macedonia since it is complex and it is not solely yours.
Daenerys Jun 27th 2011 5:21PM
The Bulgarians in self-denial who pretend to be "Macedonians" in essence have nothing to do neither with Macedonians who were always Greeks nor with the land called Macedonia.
They came in the area about 1000 years after Alexander started his Pan-Hellenic campaign to conquer Persia, therefore they sound pathetic when they try to steal the Greek history and Heritage of Macedonia.
Even during Byzantine era, the Byzantine sources always distinguished between Macedonians who were Greeks and the "savages" Slavs. Slavs were portrayed as enemies of the Macedonians and alien people. Imagine now that these "savages" want to steal the name of their Greek enemies.
In fact FYROM's Slavs are not even Slavs. They are a mixture of Turkic, Bulgarian, Mongolian people where the Bulgarian element was the dominant. They have No history to be proud of thus they try to create one by stealing whatever Balkanian heroes they can.
As their former PM once admited...they are "Slavs" who have NOTHING to do with Ancient Macedonians". As another of their PM admited during the Bulgarian uprising of Ilinden if someone should dare to say he was related to Alexander, Gruev and Deltched would have executed him at once. The hatred of the Bulgarian komitadjis for anything Hellenic was obvious. Imagine how ridiculous nad pathetic these Bulgarians in self-denial sound now when they completely disregard what their Bulgarian ancestors did.
Everyone knows that modern FYROM is a paradise for Human Rights violations. If you dare state that you are a Greek or Bulgarian, you will be taken to the nearest police station where the policemen will beat the sh*t out of you until you faint!!
In every university all over the world the ancient macedonian history is being taught under ancient Greek history. Only in the tiny FYROM where History Falsification is a daily phenomenon they live in another paralel universe.
I already raised a simple question but we all know waiting a "Slav" from FYROM to reply with something making sense is like waiting Vardar FC to take the champions league in football. Dream on bulgarians in self-denial. None takes you serious anywhere!!
Istor the Macedonian Jul 14th 2011 9:43AM
Macedonians had always Greek names, toponyms, ways, heroes, gods, dialect and spread Greek Language and Civilization to the World.
Macedonians named after Greek names ALL the cities they built or renamed.
If any modern white people do what Macedonians did we will call them Macedonians.
Γ.Γ.Κ. Sep 7th 2011 9:53AM
θε Σλάβοι μπορούν να φάνε σκατά!
Bill Pappas Mar 3rd 2012 10:17AM
When Marshal Tito of Yugoslavia changed the name of his country's southern province in 1944 from Vardar Banovina to the Social Republic of Macedonia, he did it to stir up disorder in northern Greece in order to communize the area and to gain an outlet to the Aegean Sea for his country.
This policy was also linked with the Greek civil war that at the time claimed more than 100,000 Greek lives, brought untold destruction to our country, and delayed our post-war reconstruction for a decade.
The name "Republic of Macedonia," therefore, is not a phantom fear for us Greeks. It is linked with the deliberate plan to take over a part of Greek territory that has had a Greek identity for more than three millennia and is associated with immense pain and suffering by the Greek people.
Greece does not dispute that a part of historic Macedonia lies within FYROM and we are prepared to accept a compound name. But FYROM insists on being sole claimant to the name of a whole area, the largest part of which lies outside its borders.
Greece has also made great strides to try to resolve the name issue under UN auspices. It has sat at the negotiating table since 1995 and has shown willingness to consider a solution that the UN mediator advocates - a composite name that includes the geographical designation of Macedonia but attaches an adjective to it to distinguish it from the Greek province with the same name. That's sensible, reasonable and fair to both sides.
Republic of Macedonia with Macedonian as the identity of the language and people will never be acceptable for Greece.
North Macedonia, Northern Macedonia, New Macedonia, Upper Macedonia, Vardar Macedonia, Slav Macedonia, Macedonslavia, Macedonillyria, Macedardania, Paeonia Macedonia are examples of some of the names Athens would probably consider as a compromise.