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Photo of the Day (10/12/07)
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There's nothing like a merry band of Hare Krishnas to liven up an otherwise monotonous day of shopping in the city center--in this case, Grafton Street in Dublin. S S Yap has done a great job with this shot capturing the colors and energy that blur past when the Krishnas roll into town.
Whenever I am witness to such a spectacle, I always check to see if the Hare Krishna women are in the back of the group. Someone once told me that women are lower down the Hare Krishna reincarnation ladder and aren't allowed to be up front with the alpha males. I'm not sure if this is true, but I guess I'm always trying to confirm it every time a Krishna carnival passes by--even when it's just a photograph such as this one. And if you look closely, there certainly aren't any women leading off this particular parade.
***If you'd like your photos to be considered for a Photo of the Day, post them at Gadling's Photo Pool on Flickr. ***
Filed under: Ireland, Photo of the Day
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Vineet Oct 16th 2007 12:36AM
Hello. As a practicing Hare Krishna and the Krishna movement's North American communications director, I can tell you that there is nothing in our philosophy which states that women are "lower on the reincarnation ladder" or are not allowed to be in the front. In fact, some of the best lead singers of Hare Krishna devotional music (called kirtan) are female -- and when they sing, they are right up there in front. Usually, when you see a parade like this pass by and it appears that the men are in the front and the women behind, it is probably because the lead singer is a celibate monk (signified by the orange colored robes) and it would thus be inappropriate for him to be in close proximity to the females. This separation of the sexes is fairly common in Hindu and Buddhist monastic traditions, and is based more on preserving the chastity of the monks (or nuns) than it is on notions of superiority by gender.
Hope this helps. And yes, it is a beautiful picture.
Neil Oct 16th 2007 6:36PM
Thanks for clearing this up! I've always wondered if it was true or not.
Neil
elena Oct 18th 2007 2:31PM
Like many other religions, Hare Krisnas believe woman to be the source of the men’s downfall (apple and Eve, etc). In ISKCON (official HK name), having the 'male body' is considered to be superior to having a ‘female body’. There are no female gurus in HK, and only recently women have been allowed to stand side-by-side with men at temple services. Hare Krisnas believe it is crucial for women to be subordinate and faithful; otherwise their 'lust' will destroy the society.
Although in theory, HK philosophy preaches we are all equal, it is not practiced within the movement. HK are not only sexist, but racist too (they believe that people with darker skin are less intelligent, etc.)
abejita Oct 19th 2007 8:05AM
Sadly, Vineet isn't being forthright. But it isn't his job to be completely honest, though. I knew him years ago, and I know that he knows better than what he's trumpeting now. I have been with him while he and I have both witnessed women being mistreated.
I was a devotee for 10 years, and I'm female. In my experience, devotees will insist to outsiders that men and women are (separate but) equal. They may explain away apparent inequalities by saying men and women have different (but equal!) roles, that it's voluntary, etc.
In truth, ISKCON is a hotbed of sexism and the abuse of women and children. Rape and domestic violence are the shared secret no one wants to talk about. The culture of ISKCON devalues women and encourages our mistreatment.
Do women lead kirtans? Sometimes. It's not very common though. It always seems to be an issue when it happens. I was criticized for daring to lead kirtan numerous times. Some men wouldn't even enter the temple room if I stood at the microphone. I have been to temples where women are forced to stand in the back, too. Face it, the entire culture is extremely male-centered and male-focused. Just look at the controversy over senior woman devotees taking disciples.
Marianne Oct 19th 2007 10:33AM
The fact that women have been mistreated in a society doesn't mean it is considered ok. Any organisation with a large following will have this problem; if there are a few members doing something wrong, people tend to generalise, and say that the whole group is like this.
I am myself a practicing Hare Krishna (for the last ten years) and a woman, and I have never ever experienced antyhing bad because of my gender. I know that there are people with strange sexist views around, and they can be in your school, in your church, at your work place or in your temple. My personal experience is that followers of Krishna consciouness usually are the most caring, loving and warm-hearted people, towards all humans and animals.
Regarding singing in public, I am asked to sing every time I visit my temple, and the only reason I don't do it on the street, is that it is hard for my voice to dance and sing at the same time.
Govindanandini Oct 19th 2007 4:21PM
Despite the attempt coverups posted here, unfortunately what you were told is true. There is a grey area in our religion regarding the position of women. We Hare Krsna's must come to grips with the fact that our philosophy is one designed for men
while women are either a supporting fixture for or a threat to men. The general attitude in Hare Krsna circles is to quote the Bhagavatam, our main sacred text, in which it is made very clear that for men (and the instructions are given for men), association with women is the door to hell (5.5.2).
mahat-sevAM dvAram Ahur vimuktes
tamo-dvAraM yoSitAM saGgi-saGgam
All bad qualities come out of association with women (3.31.33).
The founder of the International Society for Krsna Cosnciousness, Bhaktivendanta Swami, has stated in his writings and recorded speeches that women are less intelligent than men and therefore must be under the control of men. There are different takes from followers on such statements - not all are willing to accept the literal meaning of such words.
All in all, the fact is that the world is beginning to take notice of this little problem with the Hare Krsna philosphy. We Hare Krsna's would do well to sensibly call a family meeting on this matter so to factually, as we believe it, make this religion the most revolutionary, beautiful and progressive spiritual opportunity humanity has been given since time immemorial. Krsna consciousness is perennial, and this means adjusting our practices to time and circumstances. The time now is for putting couples in front.
Brajadevi Oct 19th 2007 6:46PM
I was born in the hare krishna movement. I can tell you that women are most definately seen as being inferior to men. Women are taught that in their next life, they may be so fortunate as to be born in a man's body. For the present while they are in a woman's body, women's dharma is to serve their husbands and bear children. Furthermore, in the hare krishna movement women are described variously as being "9 times lustier than men" "as fire to butter" "mentally unable to progress beyond age 13" "and inherently sinful" in addition women must never be unacompanied due to their feable minds and must always be under the protection of their father husband or grown up son. Does this sound familiar? A little like the Thaliban perhaps? I a was educated in America according the the Vedic system and at age 18 I had a grade 2 education level. Anyone who says that women are not inferior to men in the hare krishna movement is lying, Plain and simple!
Brajadevi Oct 19th 2007 6:50PM
I was born in the hare krishna movement. I can tell you that women are most definately seen as being inferior to men. Women are taught that in their next life, they may be so fortunate as to be born in a man's body. For the present while they are in a woman's body, women's dharma is to serve their husbands and bear children. Furthermore, in the hare krishna movement women are described variously as being "9 times lustier than men" "as fire to butter" "mentally unable to progress beyond age 13" "and inherently sinful" in addition women must never be unacompanied due to their feable minds and must always be under the protection of their father husband or grown up son. Does this sound familiar? A little like the Thaliban perhaps? I a was educated in America according the the Vedic system and at age 18 I had a grade 2 education level. Anyone who says that women are not inferior to men in the hare krishna movement is lying, Plain and simple!
Suresh das Oct 19th 2007 11:52PM
Elena, I have been practicing Krishna Consciousness since 1970. The ISKCON Hare Krishna religion is now spread to every country on Earth. It welcomes membership in all races, since we view each other as spirit soul, and not our bodies. Can you please provide a quote from any place in the Hare Krishna literatue which teaches, as you have stated: "they are racist too (they believe that people with darker skin are less intelligent, etc.)" I think you made that up?
abejita Oct 20th 2007 1:05AM
Govindanandini and Brajadevi have it right. Not only are women treated horribly, but whenever we try to speak up about it, we're shouted down or dismissed as "radical feminists." That was my experience, every time.
Women are never meant to be independent, according to Prabhupada. As children, they are under their father's rule. As adults (or child brides, hey, ISKCON had those!), their husbands rule them. As elderly women, their sons rule them. And a woman who has daughters rather than sons is considered barren. Nice, huh? Way to devalue the girls, there. Prabhupada said we wanted more dasas (male devotees) than dasis (females).
Suresh das Oct 20th 2007 11:28AM
All the negative things you are attributing to Srila Prabhupada are not completely correct and are twisted. It is best if you can provide actual quotes of his words, rather than heresay. He was always famous for saying "so many people have said, I have said this or that, but I have not said it, unless you see it in writing". Of course today, even this is difficult to prove, whether he actually said something or not, because all his books and writings are being changed and edited by the present leadership, and adjusted to their current agendas and purposes.
It seems true that some people in ISKCON have an agenda against women. There is rumored to be a "women's hater club" amongst some of the sannyasis. I also witnessed many women being thrown out of temples, just for the only sin of being women. I witnessed women being beaten by their husbands, as if they had a license to do it (someone's twisted ideas of the philosophy).
I was told many lies about women when I was a celibate monk. None of these lies actually appear anywhere in Srila Prabhupada's books, writings, or teachings. I would not blame Srila Prabhupada for what happened, it isn't factual or honest. But ordinary people seem to intepret things and mess a good thing up. It happens all the time, in the history of all religions.
People often bring to a religion, or organization, their own preconceived, and messed up ideas from other belief systems, and mix it with their new knowledge, creating something totally different then the actual original purpose of the mission. It is difficult to fix, because there seems to be no system within ISKCON to rectify, or correct mistakes and even sometimes criminal activities. The courts of law ultimately decide, exacting huge legal settlements against the devotees.
We were told many lies about women to push forward an agenda, not really to hurt women, but to keep the cash flow increasing. By keeping men and women celibate and separate, and unmarried, they could make us work hard day-and-night, concentrated on collecting money for the organization.
The celibate men seem to be taught to hate and fear women.
What was wonderful was, when I actually married a women in ISKCON, after being celibate in the organization for 6 years, I found that she was actually very intelligent, with great common sense. I always find women to be very intelligent, much more so than men, in all kinds of practical affairs. I also find women have great insight and wisdom. It is a shame, in my opinion, that ISKCON devotees seem to neglect women, and don't understand their great qualities which they have to offer. I felt a great deal of anger and resentment, as a result of being lied to. But, after much soul-searching realized that the purpose of being lied to was not so sinister as to put down women, but to increase the cash flow and money collection. It was all about the money.
I think it is mostly just due to fear. Many men in ISKCON are afraid of women. That's why they may be acting and behaving the way they do. At the same time, because of twisted and misinterpreted teachings, women seem to be mistreated, and discouraged, how unfortunate.
The whole world revolves around women. Women have tremendous power and influence over men, everywhere. Men are indeed subserviant to women, for sex, in most circles. The attempt of the ISKCON Hare Krishna philosophy, from what I personally understand, is to build strong men, who are self-controlled, with inner strength, and confidence. At the same time, a pure devotee is supposed to be "a lover of the universe, and dear to everyone" (Srila Prabhupada's words).
The basic philosophy is this material world, we live in, is a great prison house. What keeps us in the prison - sex, and sex desire. Sex desire is described as the bars of the prison. What devotees are attempting to do is break free of the prison of sex life, by changing their attitudes, and actions, and attempting to reestablish our lost loving relationship with the Supreme Spirit - an almost impossible task in today's society. One for which most devotees are judged as being crazy and as fools.
Jagat Oct 22nd 2007 8:30AM
It is unfortunate that such an attitude has developed in the Krishna consciousness movement. There are historical reasons for this attitude, but it is not as inevitable as it seems.
The worshipable deities of Chaitanya, the founder of this movement, are Radha and Krishna, the Divine Couple. There is, in this very fact, inexhaustible meaning that confirms not only the value of both sexes, but the deep and abiding spiritual value in love between them. In fact, if anything, the high place accorded Radha could, should and finally must place the feminine values on a higher plane than the masculine ones.
Only when the misogynistic and macho devotee culture is overturned will the ultimate goal of the movement, prema, be achievable. Jai Sri Radhe !
Anuradha Oct 22nd 2007 12:10PM
Haha... Neil, I bet you never thought you'd create a storm like this when you posted this picture!!
I've seen all sorts in my years in Iskcon, my best years were in a temple that showed the menfolk what we could do - the whole temple project was started, organised, managed, lead, maintained by womenfolk, and remains till today one of the nicest temples in all of Germany. It's in Cologne. You are welcome to have a look - even though I moved from there in '94 to get involved in book production in Sweden and none of the old guard are there now.
Here's how I think we should be dealing with this. Let the menfolk talk, leave them to think they are the bee's knees, while we show them what we can do.
It's not just Iskcon. Any society benefits from having women on top. But men need to feel like they run the thing, they are scared they wouldn't have a place otherwise, while we can capitalise on being able to create harmony, cooperation, love, warmth, togetherness anywhere.
So let's just work together to create the thing Govindanandini mentioned. Cause it's true, we do have something here.
Just my 2 1/2 cents...
Neil Oct 22nd 2007 12:12PM
It's been very interesting following this conversation. Thanks!
Tamoharadasa Oct 22nd 2007 9:44PM
Howdy, and Hare Krsna! I am an audiologist from Calgary, Alberta, Canada, and a devotee who has enjoyed the street chanting parties for some 30 plus years now.
Kindly let me mention that the physical arrangement had to do with protecting the women from crazies on big city streets, in the earlier days of the Movement when we encountered some violent hostility. Often, young men were at the very back, women in the middle, for this purpose, also. That, plus the gender seperation which we loosely adhere to, in terms of we are against flirtation and sex without marriage. Naturally, the celibate young males therefore do not need to mix freely with the ladies, and uften being the main drummers, who in kirtana parties such as these set the musical beat, they tend to group near the front, with the lead singer. Often, nowadays, the ladies dance, or may fall back a bit and talk or distribute leaflets etc. as well. There is a natural sexual seperation, like among young children, etc. though none are fanatical in Iskcon, or few, anyway.
Nonetheless, there is no hard and fast rule to ecstatic chanting, and in many temples' street parties, such as Toronto, or Montreal, it is often the ladies who lead the line. This varies day by day, hour by hour. In all, great fun, and extemely good for the waistline and the spiritual body as well!
These parties are great fun, and we really enjoy when the community joins in, so don't be afraid to dance or chant with us, please. Thank you for your interest, god bless, and Hare Krsna! Tom Garden, BGS, MS, R. Aud. aud. (C). Tamoharadasa
Suresh das Oct 22nd 2007 11:26PM
Srila Prabhupada stated that women are less intelligent. It is a fact that he said it. It was the early 1970's when he began teaching this idea. The women’s liberation movement was in full swing at that time. What Srila Prabhupada emphasized is that women are less intelligent, because all though they believe they are independent of men’s control, by participating in the ideals of women’s lib, in actual reality they are allowing themselves to be used and exploited by men. Men love women’s lib. With free and independent women, men no longer have to accept any responsibility for their actions, either financially or emotionally. In other words, men can sexually use women as much as they like, because of women’s lib, without having to accept any financial or emotional responsibility for their actions. Do you think this is a good deal for women?
Three decades have passed, and it has been now been uncovered that the original ideas behind the women’s lib movement were created by men, the C.I.A., to be exact, under the guidance of the neo-con elite of society. The purpose of the women’s lib movement was to break up the family circle, so that more women could enter the work force. By making women work, more wealth, in the form of taxation, and consumption of gasoline, etc., could be created for the wealthy elite. Again it all comes back to the money. Women believe they are independent of men’s control, but in actual reality they are allowing themselves to be exploited by men, and are even worse off than before.
Suresh das Oct 22nd 2007 11:42PM
Therefore, Srila Prabhupada’s teaching, that women are less intelligent for accepting such a proposal appears to be valid. He was warning women, more than 30 years ago, not to accept exploitation and slavery, in the name of independence from men.
Srila Prabhupada taught that men must accept responsibility. Men could not touch a woman outside of marriage. Srila Prabhupada invited and encouraged women to join and participate in Krishna Consciousness Movement, even though Vedic teachings normally disallow women from participating in self-realization. The practice of self-realization and austerity has historically been a men’s exclusive club. Srila Prabhupada was often criticized in India for accepting women, as well as Western people, into Brahminical culture, which was revolutionary and had never been done before.
Srila Prabhupada did not only teach that women are less intelligent. He taught us, through the teachings of the Vedas, that all persons who are living in the material world, and who have accepted a material body, are in fact fools and rascals. All of us are working day-and-night as if we will live forever, but in fact we are going to die, perhaps in the next moment. None of us can live here eternally, even though in illusion we believe it to be so. He was unique as a spiritual teacher in that he was never afraid to tell us the truth about our actual position in this world.
Suresh das Oct 22nd 2007 11:48PM
That being said, anyone who is an ISKCON insider knows that women, householders, children, and anyone who can not be, or who has no intentions of becoming, a sannyasi in ISKCON, has gotten in the past, what appears to be a raw deal. We can’t lie about our history. Women need to understand that ISKCON up to this point has been male dominated and controlled society. But the philosophy of Krishna Consciousness and Vedic Culture is meant for everyone’s upliftment, and no one should be excluded or neglected.
In the Vedanta Society, for example, there are high quality all-female ashrams, and all-male ashrams, which have been donated to them by wealthy supporters, and are often separated from each other by hundreds of miles. The fabulous Kellogg estate high above Montecito, in California, is the women’s ashram. I suggested at the Dandavats.com website that ISKCON should create a high quality all-female ashram, so that women can enjoy the same facilities offered to men in ISKCON for progress in spiritual life. What I wrote was ignored and suppressed. Over 30% of what I write at Dandavats is suppressed and never printed.
I suggest that women not wait for men, or for an organization such as ISKCON to pay for their ashram, but should fund it and built it themselves. Women deserve, as much as men, full opportunities to make progress on the spiritual path. Women should not give up on Krishna Consciousness, just because it didn’t work for them in ISKCON. No one can live without Krishna Consciousness – it is the life and soul of the pure living entity.
gaura hari das Oct 25th 2007 4:32AM
hi there,
i am actually pictured in this photograph (playing the purple drum) and i know for a fact that there were women on that parade and they are in front of us. we were advertising for the ratha-yatra festival which was held in dublin. not only are some of the local hare krishna women in front, but international professional female dancers who are also hare krishna devotees, leading the other women in the parade.
this photo is extremely misleading as the actual front of the parade is not captured and you will notice that there are no women at the back of the parade.
i grew up in the hare krishna movement along with my 2 sisters and i am happily married. i definitely do not consider women to be inferior. and in this particular photograph i don't like being branded as being a sexist religious fanatic.
Suresh das Oct 25th 2007 10:05PM
Hmmm, you've got Indrayumna Swami leading the kirtan, at the front, and you are stating out of the picture frame, in front of the Swami, to the left there are women? Come on prabhu?
But it looks like a great kirtan, not to rain on anyone's parade. I wish I were there.